Podcast: The Hacked World Order

In this week’s Asia Unbound podcast I speak with my longtime colleague Adam Segal, Maurice R. Greenberg senior fellow for China studies and director of the digital and cyberspace policy program here at CFR, about his new book, The Hacked World Order: How Nations Fight, Trade, Maneuver, and Manipulate in the Digital Age. In our discussion, Segal clearly and concisely deconstructs the framework of U.S.-China cyber relations and describes the global implications of the geopolitics of cyberspace. He notes that in recent years, states have increasingly asserted their sovereignty in cyberspace through surveillance, censorship, and cyberattacks, laying to rest any possibility that the web might evolve into a utopian space free from the dominant voice of the state. China plays a particularly important role in the realm of cyberspace, maintaining the Great Firewall to control the flow of data within its borders, engaging in economic espionage against American companies, and upholding a vision of cyberspace that directly contradicts the global, open, and secure model emphasized by the United States. Yet there is still hope for common ground. While the United States and China may never reach an agreement on the fundamental openness of cyberspace, they may find limited areas of cooperation such as crime prevention and counterterrorism. At the very least, it appears that both countries have agreed—at least for now—that disputes in cyberspace should not be allowed to derail stable aspects of the bilateral relationship. Listen below to hear his take on this complex and critical virtual world.